Good morn--er, afternoon, flist!
Jul. 11th, 2009 02:40 am![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
corilannamI have more thoughts about the recent Torchwood series, fandom, and the Who-niverse in general. They are long and rambling. Also, I wrote most of it at 4 a.m. Fair warning.
It's been interesting to read my flist the last couple of days. Reactions to COE have pretty much been either exultation or despair, and not much in between. If you've read my previous reactionary squawks, you probably know which side of the fence I fall on.
I'll state up front that I'm well aware that tastes differ, that many of us watch both TW and media in general for different reasons and with different expectations. If you thought COE was flawless from start to finish and a cracking good time and completely in line with the spirit of the show, I respect your opinion. For my own part, I tune into to TV shows for the concept, but I become a fan or not based on the characters and relationships combined with the overall... feel of the show, for lack of a better term. Just so you know where I'm starting from and where my opinions will diverge from those who watch more for the concept or the general drama or angst, or who didn't like any character other than Gwen to begin with.
That being said.
You know what I love about the Who universe, especially the recent model? The consistent theme of the human spirit conquering adversity. The joyful idea that human beings, especially from one plucky little isle in particular, can and will triumph with courage, tenacity, and ingenuity over external threats as well as the demons of their own natures. In DW, we often needed the help of the Doctor when we were in over our heads, but TW was all about humans doing it for themselves. Darker by necessity, but still always with hope, humor, and the belief that humanity, with all its good and bad moments, is worthy of being saved.
This series took that idea and reversed it in every way possible. At the very beginning, Gwen says it - humanity has shamed itself so deeply that even the Doctor wouldn't help us now. She calls it the end of the world, and while (for once) this isn't yet literal, I share her feeling. Yes, humanity eventually defeats the alien menace, but there is no triumph in it. After committing to a despicable course of self-preservation, it takes an even more despicable act, Jack murdering his innocent grandson, to prevent the larger tragedy.
Now, I'm not judging Jack as a character for this. He did what he had to, and that's always something I've admired about the character and the show. And given the set-up they left him in, there was nothing else Jack could do. Back when he let little Jasmine go with the fairies, I thought it was a brave and admirable ending. It was necessary, and any ending that kept the girl with her mother would not have worked logically.
In so many respects, Jack is an obvious parallel character to the Doctor. The Doctor, after all, was the one who first inspired Jack to give up his life as a con man and become a hero. But Jack, by necessity, is a darker and rougher version of the Doctor.
We know that there are lines that the Doctor simply won't cross (at least, not anymore). He could not commit genocide against the Daleks, not even to save Earth, not even in the deepest rage and despair over the genocide of his own people. Like Jack, the Doctor has done horrible things, but he has drawn a line now, largely due to the influence of his human companions.
That line is a luxury that Jack doesn't have, though I think he wants it badly. He isn't a Time Lord. He doesn't have a TARDIS, or the massive cleverness of all space and time inside his head. Despite the advantages of Torchwood tech, his 51st century birth, his Time Agent training, and his immortality, he is for all intents and purposes, merely human.
So I don't question his actions. What I question is the wisdom of the writers in putting him in that situation in the first place.
I really thought the first 3 and a half episodes of this series were utterly superb television. Well-written, well-acted, great character and relationship development, very interesting and conflict-building plot developments. Best Torchwood yet. I was stunned and elated and couldn't wait for more.
Then (and yes, I recognize that mileages significantly vary on this), it took a left turn at Albuquerque. Which isn't even *in* the UK, so, you know, not good! After a great deal of tooth-gnashing over how the government should be letting Torchwood do their jobs, after heroic Lois risked her job and her life to make sure they got their chance, Jack and Ianto barreled into Thames House and -- lectured the alien? About the indomitable spirit of humanity as mentioned above?
The alien, having witnessed the rest of the series so far, understandably laughs at them.
And then he kills the lot of them. Including Ianto.
Putting aside my emotional attachment to the character and the couple, it's my honest belief that if you're going to kill off a member of your main cast, it ought to mean something. It needs to accomplish something, it needs to make sense, it needs to be necessary. When Tosh and Owen died, they died doing things that nobody else could do, that saved innumerable lives. Their deaths also served as a lesson that TW is massively dangerous and death does not spare characters whose names are in the credits. In a double dose. Another lesson in this was not necessary this soon.
What did Ianto die for? Sure, it was brave to stand up to the alien. It was also incredibly foolish, since they had no significant weapons and no back-up plan. Their sole threat was to reveal to the world what the 456 and government were planning -- but what does the 456 care about public opinion? Through the children, they've already been shouting their intentions, quite literally, to the entire world. Did Jack and Ianto not even consider that there might be consequences to their bluster? After everything that's already happened?
It was a great death scene, but it was not a good death. I have had many, many favorite characters die on me during my life as a fan. For a few years, it got to be an almost comical habit. But it makes a whole world of difference when a beloved character's death means something, accomplishes something, than when it's simply senseless tragedy.
What did Ianto's death accomplish? One thing only - step one in the breaking of Jack's spirit. Step two was obviously the Iphigenaic sacrifice of his grandson, one of the most heinous acts you can make a character commit.
Add to that the final and irrevocable shattering of his already fractured relationship with his daughter, and it's no wonder Jack couldn't get off this damn planet fast enough at the end. What's left for him? Staying and watching Gwen, with her lover and her child and her happiness? What used to fascinate and attract him to Gwen is now just a knife twisting. The message is clear - already facing a grim and literally endless future, Jack cannot be allowed to achieve even momentary happiness, fulfillment, or comfort. Just as Ianto was starting to make a dent in Jack's emotional armor, too.
I like a good dollop of angst and darkness and painful catharsis as much as the next girl. I was just complaining once again about the recent apoca-movie Knowing because it just wasn't dark enough for me. But I do prefer my darkness to have a point, and not just be unrelenting grimness for the sake of unrelenting grimness. I can take a fair amount of it if the emotional or intellectual payoff is worth it.
If Children of Earth had been a movie, or an independent miniseries, I would have been all over that shit. Yay, pain! Yay, uncomfortable self-reflection on the human race! But there's a big difference to me between a standalone film and a piece of an ongoing universe. And especially an ongoing (and going and going and going) character like Jack. Bend them until they nearly break, absolutely, but if you take it that step further and actually break them, you are changing your universe and you better have a damn good reason for doing it. There was no comfort, no catharsis, no sense of relief at the end. No triumph for the human spirit in general or these characters in particular.
And no reason to want to see more except for an intellectual curiosity as to how the world is going to react to what happened, and I very much doubt I would get that from another series, which would probably just pick up with a new storyline and characters.
For me as a viewer, this was the fatal flaw of COE. What I loved about this show is now gone and they left me with nothing to replace it. One of the strengths of DW/TW has always been their vivid and interesting secondary and even tertiary characters, but for me, they can't replace the main characters that I imprint on as a viewer. I've read a lot of posts from people who liked everything that happened, but I've yet to find anyone who provided a logical reason for killing Ianto or ravaging Jack like that. Other than because it's fun. And hey, nothing wrong with doing something on a TV show just because it's fun -- but if that's what has become the standard for fun on Torchwood, then it's no longer the show I signed on for and I'm just as happy to sign off now.
Which just makes all the individually brilliant and wonderful parts of COE the more painful to think about now. Because there were some wonderful moments, and someday I might actually make a more positive post about them. Maybe.
(As a side note, I feel completely the opposite about Primeval, which as I continue through my hugely backlogged viewing, should feel free to kill off and replace as many of the main cast as their whimsy dictates.)
And that probably needed editing, but I have to get ready to go to a concert now.
It's been interesting to read my flist the last couple of days. Reactions to COE have pretty much been either exultation or despair, and not much in between. If you've read my previous reactionary squawks, you probably know which side of the fence I fall on.
I'll state up front that I'm well aware that tastes differ, that many of us watch both TW and media in general for different reasons and with different expectations. If you thought COE was flawless from start to finish and a cracking good time and completely in line with the spirit of the show, I respect your opinion. For my own part, I tune into to TV shows for the concept, but I become a fan or not based on the characters and relationships combined with the overall... feel of the show, for lack of a better term. Just so you know where I'm starting from and where my opinions will diverge from those who watch more for the concept or the general drama or angst, or who didn't like any character other than Gwen to begin with.
That being said.
You know what I love about the Who universe, especially the recent model? The consistent theme of the human spirit conquering adversity. The joyful idea that human beings, especially from one plucky little isle in particular, can and will triumph with courage, tenacity, and ingenuity over external threats as well as the demons of their own natures. In DW, we often needed the help of the Doctor when we were in over our heads, but TW was all about humans doing it for themselves. Darker by necessity, but still always with hope, humor, and the belief that humanity, with all its good and bad moments, is worthy of being saved.
This series took that idea and reversed it in every way possible. At the very beginning, Gwen says it - humanity has shamed itself so deeply that even the Doctor wouldn't help us now. She calls it the end of the world, and while (for once) this isn't yet literal, I share her feeling. Yes, humanity eventually defeats the alien menace, but there is no triumph in it. After committing to a despicable course of self-preservation, it takes an even more despicable act, Jack murdering his innocent grandson, to prevent the larger tragedy.
Now, I'm not judging Jack as a character for this. He did what he had to, and that's always something I've admired about the character and the show. And given the set-up they left him in, there was nothing else Jack could do. Back when he let little Jasmine go with the fairies, I thought it was a brave and admirable ending. It was necessary, and any ending that kept the girl with her mother would not have worked logically.
In so many respects, Jack is an obvious parallel character to the Doctor. The Doctor, after all, was the one who first inspired Jack to give up his life as a con man and become a hero. But Jack, by necessity, is a darker and rougher version of the Doctor.
We know that there are lines that the Doctor simply won't cross (at least, not anymore). He could not commit genocide against the Daleks, not even to save Earth, not even in the deepest rage and despair over the genocide of his own people. Like Jack, the Doctor has done horrible things, but he has drawn a line now, largely due to the influence of his human companions.
That line is a luxury that Jack doesn't have, though I think he wants it badly. He isn't a Time Lord. He doesn't have a TARDIS, or the massive cleverness of all space and time inside his head. Despite the advantages of Torchwood tech, his 51st century birth, his Time Agent training, and his immortality, he is for all intents and purposes, merely human.
So I don't question his actions. What I question is the wisdom of the writers in putting him in that situation in the first place.
I really thought the first 3 and a half episodes of this series were utterly superb television. Well-written, well-acted, great character and relationship development, very interesting and conflict-building plot developments. Best Torchwood yet. I was stunned and elated and couldn't wait for more.
Then (and yes, I recognize that mileages significantly vary on this), it took a left turn at Albuquerque. Which isn't even *in* the UK, so, you know, not good! After a great deal of tooth-gnashing over how the government should be letting Torchwood do their jobs, after heroic Lois risked her job and her life to make sure they got their chance, Jack and Ianto barreled into Thames House and -- lectured the alien? About the indomitable spirit of humanity as mentioned above?
The alien, having witnessed the rest of the series so far, understandably laughs at them.
And then he kills the lot of them. Including Ianto.
Putting aside my emotional attachment to the character and the couple, it's my honest belief that if you're going to kill off a member of your main cast, it ought to mean something. It needs to accomplish something, it needs to make sense, it needs to be necessary. When Tosh and Owen died, they died doing things that nobody else could do, that saved innumerable lives. Their deaths also served as a lesson that TW is massively dangerous and death does not spare characters whose names are in the credits. In a double dose. Another lesson in this was not necessary this soon.
What did Ianto die for? Sure, it was brave to stand up to the alien. It was also incredibly foolish, since they had no significant weapons and no back-up plan. Their sole threat was to reveal to the world what the 456 and government were planning -- but what does the 456 care about public opinion? Through the children, they've already been shouting their intentions, quite literally, to the entire world. Did Jack and Ianto not even consider that there might be consequences to their bluster? After everything that's already happened?
It was a great death scene, but it was not a good death. I have had many, many favorite characters die on me during my life as a fan. For a few years, it got to be an almost comical habit. But it makes a whole world of difference when a beloved character's death means something, accomplishes something, than when it's simply senseless tragedy.
What did Ianto's death accomplish? One thing only - step one in the breaking of Jack's spirit. Step two was obviously the Iphigenaic sacrifice of his grandson, one of the most heinous acts you can make a character commit.
Add to that the final and irrevocable shattering of his already fractured relationship with his daughter, and it's no wonder Jack couldn't get off this damn planet fast enough at the end. What's left for him? Staying and watching Gwen, with her lover and her child and her happiness? What used to fascinate and attract him to Gwen is now just a knife twisting. The message is clear - already facing a grim and literally endless future, Jack cannot be allowed to achieve even momentary happiness, fulfillment, or comfort. Just as Ianto was starting to make a dent in Jack's emotional armor, too.
I like a good dollop of angst and darkness and painful catharsis as much as the next girl. I was just complaining once again about the recent apoca-movie Knowing because it just wasn't dark enough for me. But I do prefer my darkness to have a point, and not just be unrelenting grimness for the sake of unrelenting grimness. I can take a fair amount of it if the emotional or intellectual payoff is worth it.
If Children of Earth had been a movie, or an independent miniseries, I would have been all over that shit. Yay, pain! Yay, uncomfortable self-reflection on the human race! But there's a big difference to me between a standalone film and a piece of an ongoing universe. And especially an ongoing (and going and going and going) character like Jack. Bend them until they nearly break, absolutely, but if you take it that step further and actually break them, you are changing your universe and you better have a damn good reason for doing it. There was no comfort, no catharsis, no sense of relief at the end. No triumph for the human spirit in general or these characters in particular.
And no reason to want to see more except for an intellectual curiosity as to how the world is going to react to what happened, and I very much doubt I would get that from another series, which would probably just pick up with a new storyline and characters.
For me as a viewer, this was the fatal flaw of COE. What I loved about this show is now gone and they left me with nothing to replace it. One of the strengths of DW/TW has always been their vivid and interesting secondary and even tertiary characters, but for me, they can't replace the main characters that I imprint on as a viewer. I've read a lot of posts from people who liked everything that happened, but I've yet to find anyone who provided a logical reason for killing Ianto or ravaging Jack like that. Other than because it's fun. And hey, nothing wrong with doing something on a TV show just because it's fun -- but if that's what has become the standard for fun on Torchwood, then it's no longer the show I signed on for and I'm just as happy to sign off now.
Which just makes all the individually brilliant and wonderful parts of COE the more painful to think about now. Because there were some wonderful moments, and someday I might actually make a more positive post about them. Maybe.
(As a side note, I feel completely the opposite about Primeval, which as I continue through my hugely backlogged viewing, should feel free to kill off and replace as many of the main cast as their whimsy dictates.)
And that probably needed editing, but I have to get ready to go to a concert now.
![[identity profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/openid.png){kind=small}
no subject
Date: 2009-07-11 08:12 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-07-13 02:54 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-07-12 12:17 am (UTC)>>>no comfort, no catharsis, no sense of relief at the end. No triumph for the human spirit in general or these characters in particular<<<
Yeah, that. (I'm concerned about this happening in New Who as well -- I read some RTD quote recently about how the next few shows will be really dark & angsty leading up to the transition from 10th to 11th Doctor -- so apparently the episodes weren't dark/angsty enough before??)
There's a real risk to a show getting too dark/angsty. Without some genuine sense of hope and potential happiness -- the emotional drivers/dynamic of the show runs into a brick wall. Angst only works when it genuinely balanced against hope/happiness/positive emotion.
( This is part of what bothered me with late-season Buffy....it all seemed to come down to torturing the characters, and gleefully destroying any chance of happiness for anyone. And I lose interest when there's nothing happening but emotional pain...when you know the only reason the creators introduce anything good is to be able to yank it away, like waving candy at the baby just to be able to snatch it away and make the baby cry. )
no subject
Date: 2009-07-13 03:02 am (UTC)And I lose interest when there's nothing happening but emotional pain...when you know the only reason the creators introduce anything good is to be able to yank it away, like waving candy at the baby just to be able to snatch it away and make the baby cry.
Yes, absolutely. As a viewer, that's the point where I stop investing in the show and start feeling jerked around. And also bored. Any show needs a mix of happiness and sadness, fortune and misfortune, triumph and tragedy, to keep it interesting. Why should I care about a character if there's only one possibility for them?
no subject
Date: 2009-07-12 12:46 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-07-13 03:03 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-07-12 01:11 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-07-13 03:04 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-07-13 02:37 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-07-13 09:05 pm (UTC)And happy birthday, sweetie! **hugs**
no subject
Date: 2009-07-14 12:39 pm (UTC)and thankee :D
no subject
Date: 2009-07-13 04:12 pm (UTC)But it was also awful and painful and I think they've managed to break their audience.
What really worries me about DW, actually, is that when/if Jack shows up there he'll be in his Doctor Who Jack persona, happy and flirty and the Doctor's faithful right hand man. As much as I love that Jack, if we had to go through all of this for nothing, if it wasn't to get Jack further along his journey and it's just going to be ignored? That's when I'll be pissed.
no subject
Date: 2009-07-13 09:14 pm (UTC)I don't know what to expect from Jack on DW. I kind of imagine we'll get a bit of the old Jack overlaying this bitter, broken Jack. After all, the "Captain Jack" persona has always served him well as a cover for the angst he doesn't want anyone to see. But even if that's the case, hopefully we'll at least get a few moments of seeing what's underneath it.
no subject
Date: 2009-07-14 12:59 am (UTC)So many good points, very well made. I salute you.
no subject
Date: 2009-07-14 06:30 am (UTC)